Curse

Pauli · Nov 24, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

@ Shasgaliel

The first build you posted is vulnerable (survival issues) and you should see my comments about popularity of such builds. Furthermore, you need to find two extremely bad monks to be able to lock down two of them at once. This build even has problems shutting down a single monk for a very long time. Not to mention a monk going back to his friends (see my comments to your other build, below).

The second build you posted is very vulnerable and therefore will be less popular (see my comments about builds' popularity). Other than that, Prot/Healing (mostly protections) monks will still not be totally locked down even IF you succeed with your Power Block (which also requires time to concentrate and make sure you dont just spend it). Furthermore, even shame+diversion have their limits, especially when your other team mates arent coordinated with you. Once a monk goes back (to a place in which he's still able to help most, or all, of his friends) you'll most likely be attacked and/or spiked.

The hammer warrior has many disadvantages at FA (luxon side) and if you want me to name them, just tell me. Many of them have been mentioned in this thread when talking about melee. Furthermore, you might want to have control over the turtle's aiming (the target he's going to choose for this canon), but you dont have it and it means a lot when you count on it to cooperate with your W.

Its more than possible to see two teams who (generally) have no clue to what they're doing, since its a casual PvP format and every relevant arguement I made in this thread applies. Furthermore, to take the last NPC down you NEED cooperation. There's NO way around it. That said, your comment about Luxons not needing cooperation to win is wrong.

Expecting good communication and others to follow YOUR target calling, in a random team of casuals is unrealistic. As a map developer you can never rely on that.

Decent monks (which are easily found) can make it extremely hard for the Luxon side to kill the last NPC, which is the victory condition for the Luxons. There are NPCs helping, and the res point for the Kurzicks is so close, not to mention being able to heal from a perch. Those facts prove your statement about "it isnt about the map" wrong.

The amount of times in which someone was able to get inside and kill Gunther before the green gate was even breached almost never happened to me. Out of the hundreds of battles I've fought (and not a few hundreds), it happened once or maybe twice. Sure it might had only been my experience, but when it only happens maybe twice out of many hundreds of battles, it must mean SOMETHING.

Your experience regarding people's builds and winning statistics might or might not be relevant. There's no way to prove its relevant, though. Therefore it cant be used to support an arguement.

Neither me or Upier were talking about the map's balance or winning as an issue. We were discussing specific issues. You could see my comments about balance and RvR in one of my recent posts.

The answer to your monks question lies in my arguements and the facts I provided regarding human psychology (relevant facts for FA), popularity of builds, and casual formats in general. Therefore your guess (about monk not being that fun for many) is more or less right. I also agree about what you mentioned when it comes to freedom, although I was mainly refering to decent builds.

There's no need to apologize. Your post is just fine.

the_jos · Nov 24, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I do not think luxons are really forced to team to win.

I don't fully agree on this. I've seen too many instances where Luxon players would rush in random to finish Guntar, only to get killed one by one because of focussed fire of Kurzicks. Only when several would apply pressure Guntar would fall. That is, if the green gate was breached, I've seen too many teams failing to keep it open.
Working together, aka teaming up, helps a lot.

This does not mean it's required, but then you often need a good player, someone who should not have this influence.

@others:
On the theocraft monking/defensive issue, I think we will never agree on this one. Let me take a sidestep to RA. In the past it was somewhat common for people to leave teams when there was no monk present (before dishonor). This means monks add serious value to a random playing field.
However, I've been in several RA matches where our random team of 3 (because of someone loading slow) non-monks would finish opposing teams, even if they had monks. This because our (random) builds had enough synergy and we played together.
It's not impossible to achieve this synergy in FA. Sure, won't happen all the time. But if enough skilled players play it this will happen fairly often.

Only when both sides are experienced it would would be possible to see if monks on Kurz side could be a real problem in FA.
When a team of 8 monks would load I'd say we have a problem. But just as teams in RA don't have a monk all the time (except when playing one) FA teams cannot depend on them. People should bring caster hate to counter monks if they do load, because of their ability to keep stuff alive. This is true in both RA and FA.

The difference is that the defense is behind a wall. Meaning people cannot just walk to the monk and he can hide away. Problem? Depends. I can bring some shadow step on my RA monk and do the same thing, getting out of danger while being able to do my job. People can hunt me, but would overextend causing problems to their team.

The trick is to appy pressure to several targets at once. I can pressure the monk when I have the right build, others can pressure or spike some other target. Works in RA which is the same kind of casual format as FA. If people fail to do this it's the difference in player's experience and the monk will make the difference. This is not a map problem but a monk problem.

I know those pressure builds are not popular.
However, you don't play what is popular, you play what works if you want to win. People in my guild wanted to GvG with 'what I like to play' builds. Sure, but don't expect to win. This ain't different in RA. If you bring a 'bad' build people will tell you so. Some in nice words with advice, others with hatefull words. Why? Because they play for win. FA isn't like that, I'm glad about that. Still, if you want to win you bring the best build for the map and the situations you can encounter.

As long as this does not happen (and it won't because it's random casuals, just like RA) good individual players will outclass bad individual players. And can make a serious difference, just like the RA teams of 3 I mentioned above.
Even a single good monk can make the difference in RA easily.
There is no skill meta in FA that needs to be fixed. Like I said before: Players need to be fixed before we start to look at theoretical problems that don't seem to be an issue (yet).

upier · Nov 24, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I think build discussion will be off-topic. In any case I can post the ones I use. They are probably not the best ones but since I am not a pvp player I stick to my own invention and pvx:
OQZTAUBPwIDEZZFZGYwDCA - instead of res I take leach signet or signet of humility. The drawback of this build I can already say it myself is pretty useless against kurzick when there are no monks on their side....
OQhkAgC8gGKSBgBZgHMDFBRcxA - instead of res as above.

As necro I would use corrupt enchatment as elite and profane as one of the skills. MM is quite annoying as well. At least to me when I play kurzicks. All those builds can be a pain for the monk but even a mending sin may take down such mesmer/necro... It is a random build wars. Both sides can equally anticipate.

You won't win.
Why?
Because this doesn't kill anything.
And you need to kill NPCs to win the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

RA vs. FA

Add a timer to RA.
Now make the blue RA team win by default if it's not killed by the time the timer reaches zero.
And imagine you now have a blue team of those shadowstepping monks.

Pauli · Nov 24, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

@ the_jos

Monks can cover up for quite a lot of aggressors when they are of "low quality". Please see my relevant comments here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=102 (look at the point in which I start my reply to Giga Gaia). The info there, along with any relevant arguements regarding monks and gate NPC, prove that it can be a serious issue at times. Like I already said: Expecting many good players to play on both sides is unrealistic. Its extremely rare.

In one of my recent posts you can find enough info to prove that RA and FA are very different in many ways (it can be found at the top of one of my recent posts). One important (relevant) fact that isnt mentioned there (if I recall) was that you have a lot more impact when the team is small (like RA). By the way, it might have just been my experience, but I've seen waaaaaaaaaaaay more good players at RA than FA.

The simultaneous pressure you describe in your post is the product of cooperation and, most probably, good builds (at least situationally good). That isnt very common at FA, to say the least.

You try to connect two different kinds of playstyles (and formats) to make a point, but it didnt really do the job here. The premade formats (especially GvG) and the random formats are designed and balanced in a very very very different way. Therefore you cant say that the same can be expected from the casuals while designing a map for them. I provided enough arguements to support that over this thread. Lets say that casuals mostly play for fun rather than winning. The battle itself means a lot for them, and not just the victory. This is also an important point to consider.

I have no problem with good players being able to have a serious impact, but I want it to be because of their skill. Therefore I started discussing the issues I keep mentioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

There is no skill meta in FA that needs to be fixed. Like I said before: Players need to be fixed before we start to look at theoretical problems that don't seem to be an issue (yet).

When a developer (designers) creates unpopular content, its his fault and no one else's. He must choose his target audience, learn about this audience, and design the content accordingly. There are many well known facts about each target audience. When things dont work its because they werent designed well enough.

@ upier

You can already guess what will my reply be, dont you? Well, I totally agree with your post.

the_jos · Nov 25, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

When a developer (designers) creates unpopular content, its his fault and no one else's. He must choose his target audience, learn about this audience, and design the content accordingly. There are many well known facts about each target audience. When things dont work its because they werent designed well enough.

You know what was unpopular content? JQ. Ask all the people trying to explore there. Took hours, sometimes even days to do that. People were organizing exploration events here on guru. FA was slightly better.
The reason? Other content available and low reward. JQ and FA got popular when A-net increased the reward.

Why was this change in reward important? Because nowadays people have those silly things called titles. Meaning they have to divide their precious playing time as efficient as possible to work on them. When I compare the reward for a SC to the reward of FA (or AB/JQ) I can only laugh. For a titlehunter FA is not an option, it's bad reward for the time played. Even when you always win. And for many players title hunting is what keeps them playing.

One of the other reasons why FA (and JQ) are not popular?
FA, JQ and AB were A-nets attempts to draw PvE players into PvP. They failed.
Because PvE players don't like to PvP. Except when they get some kind of reward they really want. Meaning during z-quests they will be there because of zoins, but with no quest active they won't be there but on some other z-quest.
And PvP players don't like to do things where they depend on random others who not only need to have a decent build but also have to work for a common goal. You cannot expect that from randoms. Or maybe they would play if the reward was better....

When A-net would have succeeded the average player level would have gone up, just as the level in RA went up (you are right, far more experienced players there). But this didn't happen.

Calling FA unpopular is true, the reason however is not bad design.

@Upier,

Nice try on RA with timer.
But such a team would not happen often due to the random factor of the area. However, since monks are a problem they need to be countered. That's why many RA players bring some caster/monk hate.
If I want to take out or disable a monk I know one thing that works for sure.
Monks on the ground can't do much. There are some skills that can do this and can even be used on a warrior (with stonefist). Even at range. Time right and their precious prot is useless. Requires some skill, might be too much to ask from randoms. Still it's possible and if people will not adapt if gate protting becomes a problem they should consider why they play (casual) PvP in the first place....

upier · Nov 25, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

@Upier,

Nice try on RA with timer.
But such a team would not happen often due to the random factor of the area. However, since monks are a problem they need to be countered. That's why many RA players bring some caster/monk hate.
If I want to take out or disable a monk I know one thing that works for sure.
Monks on the ground can't do much. There are some skills that can do this and can even be used on a warrior (with stonefist). Even at range. Time right and their precious prot is useless. Requires some skill, might be too much to ask from randoms. Still it's possible and if people will not adapt if gate protting becomes a problem they should consider why they play (casual) PvP in the first place....

You're absolutely right.
I forgot to add one modification.
The player chooses the side they will fight on. So you have the shadowstepping monks choosing the blue side.
Outside of the way the party is formed (but even that only so far as the fact that you can't form parties, because you still get to choose a side in FA) - RA is nothing like FA.
RA has two sides with an active objective, while FA has one side with a passive and one side with an active objective.

For the KD to be effective, you will need some team work.
KD the monk(s) at the same time as another player Rends the NPC while the turtle and everyone else spikes down it.
What you are asking is the Luxon to perform a perfect spike. In a random format. With no audio chat.
When is this kind of skill and teamwork you demand from the Luxon required on the Kurzick side?

Pauli · Nov 25, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

@ the_jos

You composed a very interesting post, I might say, but not everything there is accurate.

FA and JQ popularity. Indeed I remember the days in which those maps were clearly deserted. Indeed it was the reward that has drawn players there, once it changed. However, lingering interest (/popularity) could come from fun and/or reward (combining both is the best way). You cant deny the fact that many people take builds and classes that are clearly not working. I can assure you that its not always because they dont know what works. Its also, very often, because they have fun playing that specific class and build. That said, they're there for the fun of it.

One of the best ways to increase the fun factor is freedom when it comes to decent builds, which I discussed in this thread already. Another way is to make sure the issues are taken care of, and I already discussed that point too. One other way is to make sure the map is balanced, with the possibility of one side having an advantage. I already discussed RvR balance in this thread so all I'm going to say is that you should prevent people from being leavers and taking care of issues. You can easily tell that the reason behind my participation in this thread was to increase the fun factor and make the map more popular.

I can easily find battles without having to wait a lot, or at all, and therefore I wouldnt say this map is so unpopular. Furthermore, I dont think the PvE players were the only ones (or at all) the target audience for this map. This is casual PvP and you should remember that there are people, like me, who dont have the time to dedicate to a steady (and good) team. If I had the choice, I wouldnt play at FA, or not much. Some people want to PvP but they dont have the time so they need random teams, and that's FA (among others). RA is very different than FA and I proved that in one of my posts at page 6 (if I recall). You also said yourself that you believe the population to be different, on avarage.

Bad design, by the way, could also be choosing to spend your resources on a very small target audience. However, I assure you that there were a lot more casual PvPers when GW was more popular, and its an important point to keep in mind.

Other than that, I'll have to agree with upier again.

Here's what I said about RA vs FA. I wanted to make it easier for you, so I paste it here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

At RA no side has any advantage, the tasks given are much more straight forward and there's no need for splitting, its easier to work well in a small team of 4 as a part of a small map compared to FA, there are no NPCs helping anyone in the fight except the Priest (in one map type), and I could go on.

the_jos · Nov 25, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

@upier,

The situation with blue having more monks than red would cause trouble indeed, specially when blue has a defensive objective and red an offensive.
But for some reason the meta is not shifting to such play.
Let's take a look to that other area, JQ. Certain builds will be seen fairly often on both sides. I think I remember necro bombers, certain splinter barrage builds, Mo/P RoJ and stuff like that. I don't see a huge shift to certain builds in FA (yet).
Meaning the average FA player does not see playing monk as hugely advantageous.

Or they do, but I go quote Pauli:

Quote:

I can assure you that its not always because they dont know what works. Its also, very often, because they have fun playing that specific class and build. That said, they're there for the fun of it.

I think Pauli is right on this one. Many FA players (except on Z-quest) seem to be there for fun, regardless of win or loss. This is a difference with RA where many play for win.
The reason for this is that the main reason to win would be Lux/Kurz faction.
I can get far more in the same time by doing other stuff, even playing the other two faction PvP formats. When playing FA the added faction is bonus, not goal. Winning is not goal. Having fun is. Or is it? (See below)

And I can assure one thing, for most players playing healer/prot is not what they think is fun.
As long as the faction rewards are not changed (either farming, AB/JQ or FA) there will be no huge monk meta in FA. (again, see below)

Quote:

This is casual PvP and you should remember that there are people, like me, who dont have the time to dedicate to a steady (and good) team. If I had the choice, I wouldnt play at FA, or not much. Some people want to PvP but they dont have the time so they need random teams, and that's FA (among others).

I understand this one.

Let me explain a little more on FA and JQ, as I see this.
When A-net created Guild Wars they made a PvP game. It had a storyline for people to play and learn some basics but this was not the main thing.
Before Factions was made A-net detected something. More and more people were playing story and not moving to PvP at all. They added some content to the game to keep those PvE players playing.

Next they introduced Factions. When looking at the introduction of Factions one thing is clear. It was different from Prophecies, faster story and tougher mobs. And parts of the storyline lead to PvP-ish areas, JQ and FA. AB was introduced. All this was done to create an environment that enabled PvE players to shift to PvP, or at least introduce them to PvP. Remember, back then GW was still mainly a PvP game.

Both FA and JQ were introduced for PvE players to enjoy a different kind of PvP.
However, the majority of PvE players didn't have the mindset for PvP. So they got in those areas once, got killed instantly and never returned. PvP is toooo hard.
When they did enter those areas it was mainly for exploring (thanks titles).
This lead to a very few dedicated players who kept playing (for fun, sniping off explorers yelling they are only exploring is fun I guess). Sometimes an actual match was possible but not on most matches (specially on JQ).

Two things changed this
December 2007: Addition of Zkeys to the game.
November 2008: Increased Balth faction given in FA/JQ to +10 per kill (lux/kurz +5 for JQ, +10 for FA). At the same time Kurz and Lux FFF were killed so people had to look for other places for their title.

Now people had a reason to go there since the Z-keys became more and more popular.

This made both areas more popular, but mainly with PvE players interested in loot (z-keys) or people interested in maxing their title (that was, till steady farms were found). What remains now are people interested in 'loot' (now including z-coins) amongst some people having fun there.
Two completely different kinds of players, but the fun PvP players the minority.

To change those areas for the better the 'loot' players should disappear.
They have no real interest in winning, they win because they are in the area and get their faction. Kill stuff and you get your goal. Sure you can bring whatever you like to play that way, you win anyway.

Only when those players become a minority it's possible to look at what's actually wrong in FA and how to fix it. It could well be that Upier's prediction about more monks would become true. It could also be that the area becomes almost unplayable because of lack of players, just like in the past.

I hope you now also understand a bit more about why I complain about players and not so much about mechanics.
Nowadays the area isn't populated with the target audience, it's populated with people having very different goals.

upier · Nov 25, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Meaning the average FA player does not see playing monk as hugely advantageous.

The problem appears when a person does see the monk as hugely advantageous. And these are the cases I am bitching about.
Because for a Luxon there is absolutely nothing that would give you the same effect. Regardless of how good you are.

And that just contributes to the quality of the players there. No player that understands Aspy and is there JUST to win will go as a Luxon, making the whole thing even worse. Because you get the best players playing the role that is already in a league of it's own. And that role is ALWAYS on the Kurzick side.

Pauli · Nov 25, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

@ the_jos

I agree with upier, and I wont repeat his words again, so I'll refer to the points he didnt mention in his post.

I dont think you're right about the reasoning behind the development of FA, JQ and the AB, but I have no way to know for sure. My (relevant) opinion was stated in my last post.

In my opinion you're not right about the reasoning behind the people going there (unless it has something to do with the reward) because I can find way more than enough action. I can find this action even when the (relevant) Zaishen Quest wasnt given. In my opinion it has a lot to do with people who're having fun and that's their main goal there.

By the way, there was one suggestion I made and its extremely easy to implement (in my opinion). Create another outpost in which its possible to create premade groups and head into FA. On each side you could have: 2 teams of 4, one team of 6, or one team of 8. It could change things a bit.

upier · Dec 01, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Oh my!
Double faction in FA!
This boy will be playing a monk on the Kurzick side.
What will you be playing?

the_jos · Dec 01, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Oh my!
Double faction in FA!
This boy will be playing a monk on the Kurzick side.
What will you be playing?

I won't be playing, I'm not home this weekend.
But I usually bring monk, mesmer or necro to Luxon side.
Depends a bit on the first rounds, when many people bring monks I bring something else.

BlackSephir · Dec 01, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oh my!
Double faction in FA!
This boy will be playing a monk on the Kurzick side.
What will you be playing?

Ranger as always probably. As always I'll rage because the ping will raise to ~2k and dshoting even meteor shower will become difficult. I'll rage about 8 healers/protters on the kurzick side, hogging the npcs. I'll rage about idiots running wammos with defy pain.
You know ,the usual.

upier · Dec 01, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I'll rage about 8 healers/protters on the kurzick side, hogging the npcs.

Oh gosh I hope so!

Giga_Gaia · Dec 02, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Whoa, still here arguing over the same things Pauli? You certainly have a lot of patience and/or time on your hands. Just wait and see. FA WILL be changed to help Luxons in the next update. Again.

Hugh Manatee · Dec 02, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Idea to improve FA that likely won't happen:

Right now, if you kill the NPCs at a gate the gate collapses, monks can prot these NPCs indefinitely, stalling till time up and they win.

Solution, reduce the usefulness of player healers by making the gates an NPC itself, like the Asuran Ungergate, or the Pillar upi have to shoot with your wor to get into the ruins of mora, or like Abbadon after you bind him.

Make these gate NPCs UNHEALABLE It gains 0 health from healing or health gain skills cast by players. It can only be reinforced(healed) by amber run to the appropriate gate keeper(possible by a monster only special skill carried by the current gate npcs, akin to what the body guard has in GvG, it outheals weak DPS, but can be overwhelmed, and is useful for the luxons to kill or kurzicks to keep alive, but no longer vital either way). This forces the kurzicks to play active defense, attacking to repell the luxons and get amber, and punishes the "8 monk" nightmare scenario. Add new meters for each gate so both teams can see damage done to the gates. The gate would have to have a lot of HP and armor, BUT be specifically weak to the siege attack(like it takes quadruple damage from the siege, but can still be brought down by steady damage from just players attacking). Nerf the siege turtles and diversify the party that comes with the turtle to include ranged attackers and a mesmer or necro. Also, give the party that comes with the turtle a longer LoS, akin to the kournan spotters. Buff the luxon NPCs at the mines slightly(make them equivalent to the commanders).

In Gunther's chamber: Make God's Vengence an NPC, akin to the gates. 0 healing and health gain skills cast by players and heavy damage from siege turtles. Change the lore so the amber is it's ammo or power supply instead of what it's made out of. God's Vengence can only be healed by a set of monster only skills, cast by gunther and his 2 gate keepers in the green chamber(this reduces the relevent number of healers to 3 which are propped up and defended by the players). These skills will have a 1-2 second cast time, to allow skilled players to interrupt it, and will outheal a reasonable DPS from attackers, but can be overwhelmed if the luxons are allowed free reign in the green chamber. This again forces the kurzicks into a more offensive posture, as the healing of GV can be overwhelmed if they can't push the luxons out, but keeping gunther and the keepers alive is still important. Killing Gunther and the Keepers will still be a useful strategy for the luxons' success of the mission, but not essential to it, however it will now be vital for the kurzicks to attack.

There you go, that's how you balance FA. Take player healers out of the equation, and reward offense.

BlackSephir · Dec 02, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

No heal is an overkill. I thought of making the gates cappable (like shrines). Only cappable (and obviously counter-cappable) on the side with npcs.